Comments on: Wayfinding observations: Landmarks and cardinal directions http://opentype.info/blog/2009/09/13/wayfinding-observations-landmarks-and-cardinal-directions/ Fri, 03 Feb 2012 14:48:20 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Ralf Herrmann http://opentype.info/blog/2009/09/13/wayfinding-observations-landmarks-and-cardinal-directions/comment-page-1/#comment-1915 Ralf Herrmann Mon, 30 Jan 2012 09:34:12 +0000 http://opentype.info/blog/?p=209#comment-1915 Sure, GPS devices change the way we navigate thru a city dramatically. But the problem of "providing orientation within a spatial framework" is also not solved by such devices at the moment. There is still room for improvement. And of course, at the moment, we cannot fully rely on such electronic devices – for example, if they don't work in the subway ... Sure, GPS devices change the way we navigate thru a city dramatically. But the problem of “providing orientation within a spatial framework” is also not solved by such devices at the moment. There is still room for improvement.
And of course, at the moment, we cannot fully rely on such electronic devices – for example, if they don’t work in the subway …

]]> By: Bagia Turca http://opentype.info/blog/2009/09/13/wayfinding-observations-landmarks-and-cardinal-directions/comment-page-1/#comment-1914 Bagia Turca Mon, 30 Jan 2012 09:27:54 +0000 http://opentype.info/blog/?p=209#comment-1914 Unfortunately it really doesn't matter they way we start to think and design the wayfinding. They are studying that proved that people are using less the logic and the communication skills to help them self out. They completely rely on technology such as smart-phone, gps and so on. I'm base in London and I see tourists every single day. I noticed that quite a lot of them don't even need to understand the tube map because they have all journey planned on the phone. Do you think is the case that designer start to embrace the technology and build beautiful applications instead than leave it to developers and web designer? Unfortunately it really doesn’t matter they way we start to think and design the wayfinding. They are studying that proved that people are using less the logic and the communication skills to help them self out. They completely rely on technology such as smart-phone, gps and so on. I’m base in London and I see tourists every single day. I noticed that quite a lot of them don’t even need to understand the tube map because they have all journey planned on the phone. Do you think is the case that designer start to embrace the technology and build beautiful applications instead than leave it to developers and web designer?

]]> By: tom bassett http://opentype.info/blog/2009/09/13/wayfinding-observations-landmarks-and-cardinal-directions/comment-page-1/#comment-1289 tom bassett Tue, 05 Apr 2011 08:25:15 +0000 http://opentype.info/blog/?p=209#comment-1289 @Tom - London yes...me to, but do you know my biggest hate on the underground in particular? we drive on the left here in the uk, but just few long connection tunnels [on foot of course] have just a little wall plaque saying 'keep to the left' which everyone fails to see and do...and then the managers of the system just fail to say it ever again...so going up and down stairways.....you can meet huge cases coming up both sides of a stairway....!! i don't mind which side they choose to have us walk but just say something, instead of letting everyone bump and dodge... and no respect for the less able either I emailed ken livingstone's [ex mayor of london] personal e-mail many times, and it was always the same story a minion would reply for him, saying 'he wasn't able to do anything about it!' - i must ask boris the same question... it's these small details that make such a difference to the wayfinding experience,...especially for tourists and strangers eyes...more time to see the way and less time watching for people walking into you cheers tom2 @Tom – London yes…me to, but do you know my biggest hate on the underground in particular?

we drive on the left here in the uk, but just few long connection tunnels [on foot of course] have just a little wall plaque saying ‘keep to the left’ which everyone fails to see and do…and then the managers of the system just fail to say it ever again…so going up and down stairways…..you can meet huge cases coming up both sides of a stairway….!!

i don’t mind which side they choose to have us walk but just say something, instead of letting everyone bump and dodge… and no respect for the less able either

I emailed ken livingstone’s [ex mayor of london] personal e-mail many times, and it was always the same story a minion would reply for him, saying ‘he wasn’t able to do anything about it!’ – i must ask boris the same question…

it’s these small details that make such a difference to the wayfinding experience,…especially for tourists and strangers eyes…more time to see the way and less time watching for people walking into you

cheers tom2

]]> By: Drainspotter http://opentype.info/blog/2009/09/13/wayfinding-observations-landmarks-and-cardinal-directions/comment-page-1/#comment-1287 Drainspotter Tue, 05 Apr 2011 07:56:06 +0000 http://opentype.info/blog/?p=209#comment-1287 <blockquote>A simple compass rose on the ground would have made it much easier…</blockquote> There’s a simple way to integrate cardinal directions into the urban image without additional cost: http://manholecovers.de/windrose The only problem is to sensitize the guys at civil engineering department that these covers have to be installed in the right direction, which is’nt successful always. Sadly, in this case, it was’nt.

A simple compass rose on the ground would have made it much easier…

There’s a simple way to integrate cardinal directions into the urban image without additional cost: http://manholecovers.de/windrose
The only problem is to sensitize the guys at civil engineering department that these covers have to be installed in the right direction, which is’nt successful always. Sadly, in this case, it was’nt.

]]> By: Tom Bassett http://opentype.info/blog/2009/09/13/wayfinding-observations-landmarks-and-cardinal-directions/comment-page-1/#comment-1098 Tom Bassett Tue, 01 Mar 2011 13:16:24 +0000 http://opentype.info/blog/?p=209#comment-1098 Ralf - i've taken a little time out here in London, to catch up with the latest thinking...it's been an enjoyable journey - an admirer of Ladislav Sutnar 1897 to 1996 [i'd have have loved to have met him in person] and just yesterday i discovered Marian Bantjas ...wow [and bought 'I Wonder' [2nd hand last night] and today your blog and the type face for motorway signage - great work by the way ...great read and your style of explanation is 1st class, so thank you Meanwhile i have a small comment i've drive some 30k miles a year and of course appreciate we have one of the finest motorway wayfinding systems. Which brings me to Belfast where i found such a lack of street names as i drove with 'strangers eyes' that i resorted to a car dashboard mounted compass, working on the theory that i was travelling west when i entered and wanted to be travelling west when i left, i then relaxed into the many winding routes that led west eventually, of course i could have spent a lot of money and upgraded my tomtom to help but it worked and still works for sudden ridiculous one way routes that spring up.....so to cut along story short, i agree with you... i use compass notation because i understand it's simplicity Of couse my iphone 4 has now become the 'you are here' sign we so often need, but not everyone is fortunate enough to have one to hand just to add I found a great colour blindness simulator for those of us that have fully functioning RGB cones! - the camera view on the phone can be switched on and on the fly to show the varying colour shades seen with the 3 main types of colour blindness and for 59pence worth every penny. It's called CVSimulator on iTunes [but i have stolen the thread so shall stop here] Again Ralph thank you..i shall be back soon tom bassett graphic designer | sign surveyor | wayfinding analyst | typographer | risk assessor | and elder statesman Ralf – i’ve taken a little time out here in London, to catch up with the latest thinking…it’s been an enjoyable journey – an admirer of Ladislav Sutnar 1897 to 1996 [i'd have have loved to have met him in person] and just yesterday i discovered Marian Bantjas …wow [and bought 'I Wonder' [2nd hand last night]
and today your blog and the type face for motorway signage – great work by the way …great read and your style of explanation is 1st class, so thank you

Meanwhile i have a small comment i’ve drive some 30k miles a year and of course appreciate we have one of the finest motorway wayfinding systems. Which brings me to Belfast where i found such a lack of street names as i drove with ‘strangers eyes’ that i resorted to a car dashboard mounted compass, working on the theory that i was travelling west when i entered and wanted to be travelling west when i left, i then relaxed into the many winding routes that led west eventually, of course i could have spent a lot of money and upgraded my tomtom to help but it worked and still works for sudden ridiculous one way routes that spring up…..so to cut along story short, i agree with you… i use compass notation because i understand it’s simplicity

Of couse my iphone 4 has now become the ‘you are here’ sign we so often need, but not everyone is fortunate enough to have one to hand

just to add I found a great colour blindness simulator for those of us that have fully functioning RGB cones! – the camera view on the phone can be switched on and on the fly to show the varying colour shades seen with the 3 main types of colour blindness and for 59pence worth every penny. It’s called CVSimulator on iTunes [but i have stolen the thread so shall stop here]

Again Ralph thank you..i shall be back soon

tom bassett

graphic designer | sign surveyor | wayfinding analyst | typographer | risk assessor | and elder statesman

]]> By: Tom http://opentype.info/blog/2009/09/13/wayfinding-observations-landmarks-and-cardinal-directions/comment-page-1/#comment-749 Tom Fri, 23 Jul 2010 12:24:52 +0000 http://opentype.info/blog/?p=209#comment-749 Well, i know for a fact that London, as i live here, has a very good transport system. The use of "eastern" "western" "northern" and "southern" words to identify the general direction you wish to go. Also, most major tube stations have direction boards which take you to road names, or points of interest, via different exits. The use of the free mini tube maps are a great help too, as they allow you to see roughly where you are, in relation to the Thames, not accurate of course, but enough so to give you a general idea. Well, i know for a fact that London, as i live here, has a very good transport system. The use of “eastern” “western” “northern” and “southern” words to identify the general direction you wish to go. Also, most major tube stations have direction boards which take you to road names, or points of interest, via different exits.
The use of the free mini tube maps are a great help too, as they allow you to see roughly where you are, in relation to the Thames, not accurate of course, but enough so to give you a general idea.

]]> By: Oyvind Solstad http://opentype.info/blog/2009/09/13/wayfinding-observations-landmarks-and-cardinal-directions/comment-page-1/#comment-530 Oyvind Solstad Tue, 05 Jan 2010 10:50:44 +0000 http://opentype.info/blog/?p=209#comment-530 This is so true - good observation. Here in Oslo, Norway it's very confusing as there are stops on the lines heading west with the Norwegian word for east, ("øst" - and the stop Østerås) and with the word for west on the lines heading east ("vest" and the stop Vestl). So tourists trying to figure stuff out may be tricked going the wrong way. This is so true – good observation.

Here in Oslo, Norway it’s very confusing as there are stops on the lines heading west with the Norwegian word for east, (“øst” – and the stop Østerås) and with the word for west on the lines heading east (“vest” and the stop Vestl). So tourists trying to figure stuff out may be tricked going the wrong way.

]]> By: mekkablue http://opentype.info/blog/2009/09/13/wayfinding-observations-landmarks-and-cardinal-directions/comment-page-1/#comment-519 mekkablue Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:14:44 +0000 http://opentype.info/blog/?p=209#comment-519 In defense of the wayfinding system presented here (even though I also would have done it differently): THis is a classic case of selective perception. It is not true that ‘none of these information is given to me’. People usually refer to a subway map like this one: . These maps can be found virtually everywhere in the subway system. The city center, other places of interest, even the river, are on it. As a result, I usually know beforehand to which station I want to go, even as a tourist. I believe most people do. And on such a subway map, it's very easy to find out in which direction you have to go. This leads me to two conclusions: First, there is no need to find the subway lines on a topographic map. Plus, putting the directions on the boards usually is the only thing you need by the time you get to those boards. So, why should all the information a tourist possibly could need be cramped into those overhead signs? In defense of the wayfinding system presented here (even though I also would have done it differently):

THis is a classic case of selective perception. It is not true that ‘none of these information is given to me’. People usually refer to a subway map like this one: . These maps can be found virtually everywhere in the subway system. The city center, other places of interest, even the river, are on it. As a result, I usually know beforehand to which station I want to go, even as a tourist. I believe most people do. And on such a subway map, it’s very easy to find out in which direction you have to go.

This leads me to two conclusions: First, there is no need to find the subway lines on a topographic map. Plus, putting the directions on the boards usually is the only thing you need by the time you get to those boards.

So, why should all the information a tourist possibly could need be cramped into those overhead signs?

]]> By: Norbert Preining http://opentype.info/blog/2009/09/13/wayfinding-observations-landmarks-and-cardinal-directions/comment-page-1/#comment-508 Norbert Preining Thu, 19 Nov 2009 05:03:55 +0000 http://opentype.info/blog/?p=209#comment-508 Hi Ralf! I have to disagree in some points: The underground is made not for tourists, it is made for the inhabitants of the city, and should help them foremost, while at the same time help tourists. I myself being from Vienna (but living abroad) would have problems if at the underground station Stephansplatz there would be something else written but "Kärtnerstraße" and "Graben", because this is what 90% of the passengers are checking for. I agree with the cognitive map, I found myself recently in Tokyo subway (the stations there are way bigger than Vienna's ;-) and like in Vienna the most useful thing is, what you seem to have missed: The "Umgebungsplan" (in Vienna), the map of the sorrounding. There the underground layout, plus the exits, plus the neighborhoods are shown, which makes it easy to find your way in and out. Watch out for them on your next trip, they are the real safers. One more thing: Putting NW or SE onto the map would be a complete waste. How many people have an imagination about cardinal directions and can think in them? Not many. OTOH, I agree that putting something like "City Center" on the direction would help, and AFAIR the newly made metro stops in Vienna give these directions (check out the new U2 stops and the U3 stops). Still, very interesting to read. Thanks a lot Hi Ralf!
I have to disagree in some points: The underground is made not for tourists, it is made for the inhabitants of the city, and should help them foremost, while at the same time help tourists.
I myself being from Vienna (but living abroad) would have problems if at the underground station Stephansplatz there would be something else written but “Kärtnerstraße” and “Graben”, because this is what 90% of the passengers are checking for.
I agree with the cognitive map, I found myself recently in Tokyo subway (the stations there are way bigger than Vienna’s ;-) and like in Vienna the most useful thing is, what you seem to have missed: The “Umgebungsplan” (in Vienna), the map of the sorrounding. There the underground layout, plus the exits, plus the neighborhoods are shown, which makes it easy to find your way in and out.
Watch out for them on your next trip, they are the real safers.

One more thing: Putting NW or SE onto the map would be a complete waste. How many people have an imagination about cardinal directions and can think in them? Not many. OTOH, I agree that putting something like “City Center” on the direction would help, and AFAIR the newly made metro stops in Vienna give these directions (check out the new U2 stops and the U3 stops).

Still, very interesting to read.

Thanks a lot

]]> By: Perth http://opentype.info/blog/2009/09/13/wayfinding-observations-landmarks-and-cardinal-directions/comment-page-1/#comment-500 Perth Tue, 03 Nov 2009 09:16:59 +0000 http://opentype.info/blog/?p=209#comment-500 Great article Ralf, I always seem to get lost in London even though I have been there hundreds of times. For a tourist I can imagine this would be hell especially as their underground signage doesn't accommodate large landmarks either. Great article Ralf, I always seem to get lost in London even though I have been there hundreds of times. For a tourist I can imagine this would be hell especially as their underground signage doesn’t accommodate large landmarks either.

]]> By: Name (required) http://opentype.info/blog/2009/09/13/wayfinding-observations-landmarks-and-cardinal-directions/comment-page-1/#comment-474 Name (required) Mon, 05 Oct 2009 09:39:47 +0000 http://opentype.info/blog/?p=209#comment-474 Hi! Congratulations! Your readers have submitted and voted for your blog at The Daily Reviewer. We compiled an exclusive list of the Top 100 typography Blogs, and we are glad to let you know that your blog was included! You can see it at http://thedailyreviewer.com/top/typography/2 You can claim your Top 100 Blogs Award here : http://thedailyreviewer.com/pages/badges/typography P.S. This is a one-time notice to let you know your blog was included in one of our Top 100 Blog categories. You might get notices if you are listed in two or more categories. P.P.S. If for some reason you want your blog removed from our list, just send an email to angelina@thedailyreviewer.com with the subject line "REMOVE" and the link to your blog in the body of the message. Cheers! Angelina Mizaki Selection Committee President The Daily Reviewer http://thedailyreviewer.com Hi!

Congratulations! Your readers have submitted and voted for your blog at The Daily Reviewer. We compiled an exclusive list of the Top 100 typography Blogs, and we are glad to let you know that your blog was included! You can see it at http://thedailyreviewer.com/top/typography/2

You can claim your Top 100 Blogs Award here : http://thedailyreviewer.com/pages/badges/typography

P.S. This is a one-time notice to let you know your blog was included in one of our Top 100 Blog categories. You might get notices if you are listed in two or more categories.

P.P.S. If for some reason you want your blog removed from our list, just send an email to angelina@thedailyreviewer.com with the subject line “REMOVE” and the link to your blog in the body of the message.

Cheers!

Angelina Mizaki
Selection Committee President
The Daily Reviewer
http://thedailyreviewer.com

]]> By: ralfherrmann http://opentype.info/blog/2009/09/13/wayfinding-observations-landmarks-and-cardinal-directions/comment-page-1/#comment-472 ralfherrmann Fri, 25 Sep 2009 09:25:48 +0000 http://opentype.info/blog/?p=209#comment-472 @Bill: I agree that people navigate differently, but I also think it comes down to very few general principles. And a good wayfinding system should give access to all of them, instead of just one. Don't you think? @Bill: I agree that people navigate differently, but I also think it comes down to very few general principles. And a good wayfinding system should give access to all of them, instead of just one. Don’t you think?

]]> By: Bill http://opentype.info/blog/2009/09/13/wayfinding-observations-landmarks-and-cardinal-directions/comment-page-1/#comment-464 Bill Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:34:38 +0000 http://opentype.info/blog/?p=209#comment-464 Interesting article but it sounds like you would have better served if you carried a compass rather than asking the city in question to add 10s of thousands of dollars, if not more, worth of improvements to it's transit system. I am not trying to be a smart ass but everyone navigates differently and while cardinal directionals may have helped you it may have helped the next guy. Interesting article but it sounds like you would have better served if you carried a compass rather than asking the city in question to add 10s of thousands of dollars, if not more, worth of improvements to it’s transit system. I am not trying to be a smart ass but everyone navigates differently and while cardinal directionals may have helped you it may have helped the next guy.

]]> By: ralfherrmann http://opentype.info/blog/2009/09/13/wayfinding-observations-landmarks-and-cardinal-directions/comment-page-1/#comment-461 ralfherrmann Wed, 16 Sep 2009 12:10:34 +0000 http://opentype.info/blog/?p=209#comment-461 And according to this article: http://adactio.com/journal/1608/ the Thames, London’s most important landmark, has been removed from the tube map. And according to this article:
http://adactio.com/journal/1608/
the Thames, London’s most important landmark, has been removed from the tube map.

]]> By: ralfherrmann http://opentype.info/blog/2009/09/13/wayfinding-observations-landmarks-and-cardinal-directions/comment-page-1/#comment-460 ralfherrmann Wed, 16 Sep 2009 07:08:41 +0000 http://opentype.info/blog/?p=209#comment-460 I didn't even noticed there was a subway system in San Francisco when I was there. I was busy enough to figure out the bus system. See Erik Spiekermann’s observation: http://spiekermann.com/en/san-francisco-walks-1/ I didn’t even noticed there was a subway system in San Francisco when I was there. I was busy enough to figure out the bus system.
See Erik Spiekermann’s observation: http://spiekermann.com/en/san-francisco-walks-1/

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